The Digital Stage

Andi Graham (00:02.23)
Good afternoon and welcome back to the digital stage. We're here today with Kristin Sheppard. Hello, Kristin.

Kristen Shepherd (00:10.417)
It's great to be here.

Warren Wilansky (00:10.658)
Hello?

Andi Graham (00:12.406)
Yeah. You want to tell us a little bit about yourself?

Kristen Shepherd (00:15.875)
Sure, I am the senior consultant at the newly formed Shepherd Lane and Associates consulting firm and we are working with cultural institutions, mostly art museums, providing consulting in a variety of areas, senior leadership support as well as membership, advancement, visitor experience is a particular favorite and my colleagues at Shepherd Lane are doing public speaking and media training.

as well as project management training, which is something sorely needed in a lot of museums. So I'm coming to you after a stint in several large museums across the United States. I was the executive director at the Museum of Fine Arts in St. Petersburg most recently, and before that at LACMA in Los Angeles and the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York. Happy to be here.

Andi Graham (01:08.342)
Ah, that's fantastic. Welcome. Well, you've got a lot of interesting history. And it sounds exciting touching all of those pieces too, because sometimes they can be so fragmented across the institution. We are working...

Kristen Shepherd (01:12.345)
Thank you.

Kristen Shepherd (01:23.375)
Oh my gosh, so true. Yes. Visitors experience in particular, I think is something that museums are starting to be a lot more interested in in different ways, including sort of digital engagement, on -site engagement, and how the entire museum ecosystem can support the visitor experience and visitors. So it's been great in my consulting practice to be really collaborative with.

Andi Graham (01:31.284)
Yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (01:49.105)
all departments, the visitor in front of house team, of course, but also curatorial education. So many elements of the museum experience come to life when the visitors are there. So it's really wonderful to see new ideas emerging in how we engage visitors.

Warren Wilansky (02:07.104)
Have you found that museums are generally behind the trends, like with using digital and using online platforms? Have you found that that's to be the case, like given your experience versus who you're working with now?

Kristen Shepherd (02:18.447)
You know, that's an interesting question. I think museums in many ways can be on the cutting edge of that because we have such incredible content and we work with artists and incredibly creative people both on staff and out in the world. So in many ways, museums can be at the forefront. But one of the challenges, of course, is having in -house expertise or funding to do really ambitious projects. So I think we see...

Warren Wilansky (02:23.758)
Hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (02:45.681)
you know, really wonderful digital work happening coming out of large institutions where the funding is maybe more generous. But, you know, definitely smaller institutions are benefiting from all kinds of support from foundations like Art Bridges are doing really wonderful things and supporting programming that brings new ideas to life. But also Bloomberg Connects. Do you guys know Bloomberg Connects? This is like,

Andi Graham (03:13.718)
It's so cool.

Warren Wilansky (03:14.19)
That -

Kristen Shepherd (03:15.185)
It's the coolest thing and they've been at it for a while. Doing an app for museums is not exactly a new idea. That's something everyone felt they had to do like 10 years ago. Everybody had to develop an app. But Bloomberg Philanthropy is supporting content creation, photography. They're allowing small museums as well as large museums across the world.

Andi Graham (03:28.214)
Yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (03:42.257)
to participate in this platform and the funding becomes less of an issue because Bloomberg Philanthropies is supporting it. And it means that that digital content and the visitor experience can be so enhanced without the impediment, the obstacles of funding. So I'm a huge fan of Bloomberg Philanthropies in general, but I love that Bloomberg Connects is bringing a lot of digital content.

to museums that otherwise may not have had the means or the expertise to develop it. I think it's great.

Andi Graham (04:15.958)
Do you see the museums in your circles promoting that content on Bloomberg connects like to their audiences?

Kristen Shepherd (04:23.121)
Absolutely. Yeah, like when a museum is launching their Bloomberg Connects app, their participation in Bloomberg Connects, it's usually like with great fanfare. Like they're very excited to be able to promote it. And I think it's great. They do it on social media. They make sure their members know about it. Of course, on site, the on site experience can be enhanced by that. There are often, there's often audio content. There's more label content. There's more...

interaction that the visitor can have with the materials they're seeing on site. So the on -site promotion of that app is helping as well.

Warren Wilansky (05:05.87)
You know, what's interesting is I actually just posted about the Bloomberg Philanthropies on LinkedIn this week, because I was in Washington meeting up with another arts organization and they had told me about it. We were chatting about it and then I did some exploration on it. Then I started thinking, well, who else is funding? And then I started going down the rabbit hole of looking at who else is funding. And, you know, it's just fascinating. You might not know this, but we're in Canada. So much of the arts in Canada is government funded.

Andi Graham (05:10.742)
You did, yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (05:11.153)
Yeah.

Warren Wilansky (05:33.07)
And it seems to me as if so much in the United States is foundation funded. And it's just a different model serving the exact same intention. And I'm just, I'm curious if there's any others that maybe like, are anybody listening to this podcast might be, might want to look at two other places for funding.

Andi Graham (05:37.462)
Yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (05:39.793)
Yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (05:50.961)
I think, first of all, how great that can.

Andi Graham (05:55.894)
It seems like impossible to even imagine that.

Kristen Shepherd (05:57.233)
things.

Kristen Shepherd (06:01.521)
It's difficult for sure. I mean, we've been, you know, the history of arts and culture philanthropy in the United States, you know, has been so reliant on individuals, wealthy individuals. And then, you know, as those sometimes family foundations, you know, you know, some of the some of the wealthiest create foundations that are for charitable giving as well, which is wonderful. For a while there, there was really robust corporate giving.

because I think corporations recognize the halo effect of supporting in their communities. And that still happens to some extent. It's become such a marketing, you know, a piece of a marketing budget for corporations. And certainly during COVID, that philanthropic support shifted to, you know, other areas of need in communities and hasn't necessarily rebounded at the same rate. But certainly we rely on.

individuals as major donors, foundations, corporate. There is some government support and certainly, you know, the government support during COVID was an absolute lifeline for most every museum and arts organization I can think of. But, you know, equally, I think it's really important that we have membership and individuals who are engaging with the mission and supporting and creating an impact at museums.

even at more modest levels of giving. And membership can really be a measure of a community support. You may have major donors and they're so important to the institution, but gosh, to have members at the more modest levels of giving, particularly when those gifts are a little more dear, that parting with $250 or $120 may be a lot more dear for someone in the community who's on a...

modest income level, but that level of support and engagement is incredibly important in the community. So membership is a big part of my work. I really love museum membership and finding ways to make sure the community feels a part of what the museum is doing and is really engaging with the museum's work so that they understand their collective impact.

Andi Graham (08:06.856)
you

Warren Wilansky (08:22.286)
Do you have any idea, sorry Andy, I just had, I know I'm just, I'm feeling this. You know, I'm curious from your perspective so that I can learn from you about, you know, we build websites mainly. Like what can we do to help with membership? What can we do to kind of, you know, offer up online tools to really build relationships with a donor base?

Andi Graham (08:23.942)
You're good, go.

Kristen Shepherd (08:27.115)
Thank you.

Kristen Shepherd (08:45.649)
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that. It's really one of the big challenges.

museums is sort of looking at their website, it can be such an enormous undertaking. So I'm really eager to hear from you about how you work with culturals on their websites to keep them up to date. But I would say like from a web design perspective, presence for membership is really important. You know, making sure it's visible and it's not just sort of hidden in a menu somewhere, but also the ease of understanding the membership program and what it does and the ease of transaction.

You know if you have to go down to you click through too many pages to be able to support that can be a real impediment So making sure that digital experience that user interface is easy. It's seamless To the extent you already have a relationship with that person to make sure that their contact information is there that they can somehow log in So they don't have to retype, you know all their information that kind of thing the ease of transaction We've all gotten so spoiled

Andi Graham (09:41.824)
you

Mm -hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (09:51.633)
by one -click transactions on the commercial side of the world, we need to find a way to make giving and supporting the missions we care about just as easy. And I would love for more websites to make that engaging, fun, easy transactions. And I think that would be a tremendous help for membership programs, but also just for online giving. Even micro -donation.

Andi Graham (10:17.482)
Mm -hmm.

We run into a lot of issues with that as marketers who are trying to grow membership or we're tasked with specific donor acquisition. It's not that we don't want to do that. It's that the tools don't allow us to do that. And so many of our clients are stuck on these old archaic, very unwieldy tools, especially for membership. There's a lot happening.

From the fundraising standpoint, that's been fantastic. A lot of really new tools, embracing AI, making things one click, using digital wallets, the things that you expect in a retail experience. But from a membership experience, do you see any tools on the market that are doing something neat and interesting? Because I have yet to run into those.

Kristen Shepherd (11:01.915)
You know, it's, I think, gosh, I don't wanna sort of speak out of turn, but I will say I have yet to meet the museum advancement officer who is absolutely delighted with their CRM and the tools that it offers to connect to web transactions, right? It's really challenging because in many cases, you know, the CRM, the donor database that's being used.

Andi Graham (11:17.748)
Yep.

Andi Graham (11:21.556)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (11:32.441)
may be really archaic and clunky and then trying to plug in for online transactions means you have to create some kind of bridge. There has to be all this architecture. There's not a seamless solution, I would say, that's really out there. I think Tessitura, BlackBod products, they're all working toward it and it's all evolving. But gosh, I haven't met anybody who's like, you know what's great?

Warren Wilansky (12:00.556)
Mmm.

Andi Graham (12:00.596)
Yeah, yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (12:01.457)
or CRM and how we, you know, it's not the easiest, but it is aspirational. And boy, the first one to solve that problem and do it economically so that nonprofits won't hesitate to implement, you know, will be a big, big winner for this space for sure.

Andi Graham (12:14.71)
Yeah, that's...

Andi Graham (12:22.614)
I think so too. I spent all last week at the nonprofit technology conference out in Portland. So I was evaluating all the different CRMs because we're often tasked with making recommendations on clients who want to replatform, which of course is not what we're getting paid to do, but because we have our hands in so many different platforms, we really get to see which ones play nice in the sandbox with others, which ones have strengths and weaknesses and where those things are. I found that there was...

a huge variety of new CRMs coming onto the market and who are trying to grab market, but there wasn't a single opportunity, a single option for membership platforms that I saw. So they could all handle fundraising and they could all handle taking the dollars, but none that, you know, and then managing donors, but there was none that that handled membership. So that one's a struggle.

Kristen Shepherd (13:11.537)
Yeah. And I think, you know, for membership, membership is, you know, often straddling advancement and development and marketing. You know, your members are your ambassadors in the community. You want them, you want them to be sort of close. You want them to be really engaging and knowing what's on at the museum. So that that hybrid model of sort of marketing and advancement is so important. So the way that websites,

Andi Graham (13:18.646)
Everything. Yep. Retail. Yep.

Kristen Shepherd (13:41.473)
the way that your email platform, the way that you're touching and communicating, having a communication strategy for members is so important. And yet it still feels like a workaround so many times. Like we're sort of creating solutions for something that should be quite robust and easy. Certainly on the retail side of the world, you see it. But Warren, I'm curious to know like in your work as you're developing websites,

Andi Graham (13:53.874)
Yes.

Andi Graham (14:00.278)
Yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (14:09.169)
Are you seeing any movement there and how members in particular, but also visitors to the website, how they get information and what that flow of information and content looks like? Is there anything interesting and fun that you've seen that might be the next wave for us?

Warren Wilansky (14:27.15)
Well, you know, the funny thing is, as I'm listening to both of you discussing this, I'm like, well, why don't we just build this already? You know, that's almost my, you know, and I'm not even kidding anymore because there's there have been times, you know, we have worked with Tessitura, we worked at different CRMs. And the issue here is, I think, twofold. One is the benefit that the museum world has is you don't have you don't lack stories. So the idea that so many even brands have is great retail solve this.

Andi Graham (14:33.11)
Heheheheh.

Kristen Shepherd (14:33.297)
No.

Andi Graham (14:36.842)
I'm

Kristen Shepherd (14:37.073)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (14:42.289)
Mm -hmm.

Warren Wilansky (14:56.846)
but a lot of times they don't have good stories to tell. Museums have more stories than anybody could ever possibly want. So museums are lucky in that way. The key thing then is having a platform that is probably specifically to museums needs. And that's probably the problem is that even taking something like Tessitura, Tessitura was more specifically for arts and performing arts organizations. So even putting it into the museum world makes it...

Kristen Shepherd (15:18.865)
arts, yep.

Warren Wilansky (15:22.894)
get there maybe 80 % of the way there, but not the 100 % that the industry needs. So I would say that what's interesting is that my feeling is probably that something needs to happen specifically for the membership world of museums. But in the short term, and this goes to something that Andy really went on about one of the other times we chatted, is at least the power of email is there. That if you have somebody's email address, you can get them to go wherever you want them to go with one click.

so that maybe they're then not navigating through the site. But, and tied to that, I think museums and all cultural organizations should not be afraid to send emails if somebody has said, I want to hear from you. And there should not be a fear of email because of it.

Kristen Shepherd (16:07.025)
Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that we are sometimes fearful of is sort of the frequency of touch and the variety of messages. Once you have a member or a visitor email, you know, we all fear unsubscribe. And the next step isn't taken, which is tell us what you do want to hear from us about, right? So when, you know, I can't tell you how many clients I have right now. If someone unsubscribes, they are untouchable.

Andi Graham (16:15.508)
Mm -hmm.

Warren Wilansky (16:26.99)
Hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (16:36.401)
And it means they can't send renewal notices. It means they can't invite them to things, to member programming, where there's such a movement to go green because it saves resources. It's much more efficient and effective and supported. People are interested in going green. They don't want to necessarily get all this mail and whatever. And I think they recognize that it's saving the museum's resources, all of that. But...

Andi Graham (16:51.446)
Mm -hmm, yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (17:05.679)
Benefits fulfillment comes through email. If you unsubscribe, it's done. And so you've got to be able to capture current contact information. I think in terms of best practices, capturing that contact information, looking at the kinds of messages they get and capturing that member's preferences. They may not want to get the weekly retail email, but they may well want to get...

Warren Wilansky (17:12.75)
you

Kristen Shepherd (17:32.369)
the semi -weekly or bi -weekly family email, if that's their demographic. But right now, I think the communication strategies get a little muddled. And then the capability of preference and personalization of that online experience is a little bit challenged in most museums. Not the case everywhere, but in most mid -size and smaller museums where there is a lack of either in -house expertise,

Warren Wilansky (17:39.552)
you

Warren Wilansky (17:47.154)
Mm.

Andi Graham (17:48.086)
Yeah.

Andi Graham (17:56.012)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (18:01.713)
funding for more sophisticated e -marketing, it means that we're losing some people when we over touch them. So we're afraid to touch them too much. But then if we aren't touching them enough, we're not giving them the engaging content that would actually enhance their experience, increase their loyalty, and help them understand their impact. So we're in this sort of in -between phase where that...

Andi Graham (18:19.592)
you

Kristen Shepherd (18:29.417)
email marketing that's so important both for transacting and for content realization can be challenged at times. So it takes, I think, some real strategic thinking when you don't have the most robust email marketing platform.

Warren Wilansky (18:46.158)
I have a question on that actually, and this is probably for both of you and Andy as well, because you're the digital marketer, I'm not, is I feel like the moment at which you can best do that is probably the first second that somebody signs up because that's when they have the best recency buys. And if you can find a way to kind of personalize things immediately, then you have probably a better chance of them not unsubscribing at some point because you're right away trying to find out what exactly they want.

And then from there, you can hone down even deeper so that you don't suffer from sending a senior citizen something related to a child's program.

Kristen Shepherd (19:24.049)
Right, right. I think you're right. I mean, the moment to capture contact detail and preferences is that moment, the moment of the gift, that transacting moment. It's not always possible. You know, if someone is converting.

Warren Wilansky (19:36.078)
Hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (19:40.305)
desk, they're there, they came to buy a ticket and see the museum. And, you know, a terrific visitor experience person says, you know what, we'd love for you to join as a member, you know, I see your local. If you're a member, you know, here's the impact you make. And it means you can come whenever you like, come and go as you please, da da da, and they convert that person to membership. They've already had a little conversation, and there's a line forming behind this person and there's, you know, pressure.

in person to sort of keep it moving, keep it going.

Warren Wilansky (20:14.382)
you

Kristen Shepherd (20:17.553)
make that really seamless.

signing up, like how do we make that really seamless and easy to capture that information? Because you're absolutely right. I think making sure that we have that upfront, that's the moment to get it if we can.

Warren Wilansky (20:23.15)
Mm

Andi Graham (20:34.102)
I agree with that, but with great segmentation comes great power for a small marketing team. And it's a, it's really tough when you've got, you know, we were at a museum last week kicking off and you know, when you've got two people working in the marketing department of a, you know, multimillion dollar organization with dozens of programs and events and, you know, different constituents all across their different modalities. That's really hard. I mean, he's managing the.

Warren Wilansky (20:41.116)
Yeah.

Andi Graham (21:00.918)
person who's managing email on their side has two or three different lists and multiple emails that he's sending already. So it's really tough to get specific, but boy, I mean, segmentation is so powerful. It's honestly also a way to grow. So it's hard.

Kristen Shepherd (21:16.857)
Yeah, it's one of those things to sort of be aspirational about if you're a smaller mid -sized museum and find the opportunities where you can. It may not be implementable today, but as part of a communication strategy.

Andi Graham (21:21.124)
Mm -hmm.

Andi Graham (21:26.302)
Yep.

Andi Graham (21:34.216)
you

Kristen Shepherd (21:38.043)
and relevant we can make our communication.

Warren Wilansky (21:39.468)
you

Kristen Shepherd (21:43.043)
and finding the small ways to do that, I think even incremental changes there can make a difference.

Andi Graham (21:52.854)
For sure. What are, so speaking of membership, I'm curious what trends you're seeing in membership right now across the board. What happened during COVID and what's going on now? Are memberships back up to pre -COVID levels?

Kristen Shepherd (22:08.301)
Rarely. There are some membership programs that are are that have rebounded and are doing well. Most of my clients and most of the members of the museum directors I know are concerned about membership. There's a tremendous fall off during COVID. Museums ever since about 2022 have been really working to claw back recapture those members. So I think it's you know, it's an area of real concern.

Andi Graham (22:16.53)
Yeah.

Andi Graham (22:34.906)
Thank you.

Kristen Shepherd (22:35.345)
There's also been, I think, a change in expectation about what membership can and should be. And a lot of my work right now is...

evangelizing the idea of engagement versus stuff, transact. So I would say...

Andi Graham (22:50.23)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (22:55.249)
trying to spearhead and amplify is a movement away from membership feeling like a product and those benefits being quite transactional and moving instead towards the idea of impact, engagement, and investment in the organization. I think we have conditioned members for decades. We've talked about membership as a product. Sometimes we discount it, like it's a box.

Andi Graham (23:14.576)
Mm -hmm.

Andi Graham (23:23.35)
Yep.

Kristen Shepherd (23:24.657)
cereal. We talk about how many visits to make it worth it, how many visits, if you visit four times, it pays for itself. When I hear that, it just makes my skin crawl. It's terrible. I talk about this a lot with clients and when I'm doing educational workshop.

Andi Graham (23:30.23)
Yeah.

Thank you.

Kristen Shepherd (23:45.009)
What we've conditioned members to expect is a long list of benefits, of discounts and

Warren Wilansky (23:49.186)
Mm.

Kristen Shepherd (23:52.209)
of stuff you get for free in addition to free admission.

we present membership in that way, what we're doing is encouraging what's called negative reciprocity. It's the idea that you get more than you give. It's a good deal. That's the opposite of philanthropy. A gesture of philanthropy is about support and about what that gift makes possible for the community, in the museum, how it supports the mission. So when we talk about that long

Andi Graham (24:03.638)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (24:26.513)
benefits and that transactional quality, what we're actually doing is nullifying the idea that what they're doing is a philanthropic gesture and that they're joining a community of people who care about this mission and want to support it. Your members tend to be your pipeline for volunteers, for future trustees, future major donors. Something like 80 % of major donors start out as members. And one of my favorite

Warren Wilansky (24:31.47)
you

Andi Graham (24:40.07)
Hmm.

Warren Wilansky (24:43.964)
Yep.

Andi Graham (24:45.958)
Everything.

Kristen Shepherd (24:56.593)
stats from when I worked at the Whitney was that Leonard Lauder, who was the largest single donor to the Whitney in its history, started out as a $50 member. And that is the case for most every major donor you can think of. They start out as members. So if we talk about membership as a transaction and as a good deal, we kind of negate.

Warren Wilansky (25:11.004)
Thank you.

Kristen Shepherd (25:27.545)
When we talk about trends in membership, I definitely see a trend away from those transactions, which actually reduce the net benefit to the museum of that gift. The cost to service that membership, in some cases, exceeds the amount of the gift. So making sure the net benefit to the museum is as robust as it can be is how to serve the mission. And making sure that that member feels engaged and invested and

understands the work and the mission, that engagement actually makes the membership experience more part of their life so that when it's a year later and it's time to renew that support, it's not a transaction anymore. It's now something that's like, this is something I support. This is something I believe in, I value it. And my engagement with the museum throughout the year, whether it's visiting, whether it's receiving content through email,

that was relevant and interesting to me helped me understand the museum, whether it was attending events and programs, whether it was volunteering at that museum, whatever those engagement points are, lead to a longer, you know, a lifetime relationship with that member. So engagement, I think, is the biggest trend in membership and are the new ways we can engage with members. Moving away from transactional and into engagement, I think, is one of the most important.

Warren Wilansky (26:30.556)
you

Andi Graham (26:48.358)
You

Kristen Shepherd (26:54.993)
important trends in museum membership right now. And it's been going on for a while in a quieter way, but now we're really starting to really focus on what engagement looks like. The other trend I would say is just...

Kristen Shepherd (27:12.945)
cards you know.

and communicating by email. It's something, you know, five, 10 years ago, as I was leading membership programs, we would hear, well,

Andi Graham (27:17.206)
You

Kristen Shepherd (27:27.345)
not going to use email and you know they're not going to go online for these things. And I got to tell you my 79 year old mother is ahead of me. She uses her smartphone at the grocery store to pay for her groceries like she's you know there's there's no reason to think that our older members will not engage with us if there's you know if it's more electronic media. So those are the two things I see for sure. What are you seeing out there Andy in terms of trends in membership?

Andi Graham (27:49.594)
.

Kristen Shepherd (27:56.625)
museums you're working with or other organizations.

Andi Graham (27:58.588)
Yeah, I think there's a little bit of both. I love that move. We've always sort of taught when we talk to the organizations we work with, if we're working on marketing for membership specifically, we talk about both the transactional and the impact based members. And there are two different things because there are the young mothers who just want to have the reciprocal membership to the zoo or the aquarium, you know, to use the different months, especially, you know, living in Asheville, I have noticed that it's a huge thing here that.

Kristen Shepherd (28:16.273)
Yeah.

Andi Graham (28:27.83)
the members, there's, if you get this art museum card, you can go to these 15 other organizations. So it's, it's all the, all the moms talk about that as the, you have to have to get the membership here because this is what you need for the summer to keep your kid occupied. And so, um, I like, I think that there's still room for marketing the membership to those parents who want those benefits, but that transition comes in the engagement.

Kristen Shepherd (28:42.833)
Thank you.

Andi Graham (28:56.022)
And so the engagement piece, I think is interesting and that's what we're talking about this year a lot, especially with, and maybe we'll go here next, but with election cycles and everybody's email inboxes and mailboxes and phones blowing up, it becomes a lot harder to communicate effectively with members or with donors or with anybody, any constituents or community members.

Kristen Shepherd (29:22.769)
much noise.

Andi Graham (29:23.126)
There's so much noise. And so we've been actually talking about this is your year of events. So how many personal connections and reasons to interact with your constituents can you possibly think of? And it's going to be more work and it's going to be a lot harder, but the payoffs in the long run are going to be much higher engagement and much more personal connection and things like that. And so we've been talking a lot about that. We have one organization that's been getting co -sponsors to do a monthly event for members.

Kristen Shepherd (29:28.529)
So how many of us know that Jesus did it?

Kristen Shepherd (29:43.473)
you

Warren Wilansky (29:45.4)
Thank you.

Andi Graham (29:52.214)
but they have different brands, their corporate sponsors come in and sponsor the event. So they don't actually spend a dime, but they just plan it, organize it, and then the members get this lovely little happy hour where they all get to, and then there's some sort of curatorial presentation or something that happens. And so that's been really good for them, and it saves them, they still do the emails and things like that too, but at least there's another touch point and something going on. So.

Kristen Shepherd (30:14.479)
Yeah, that's great.

Warren Wilansky (30:20.028)
It sounds like from what both of you are describing, and maybe this is a new generational experience from what I've been seeing, is that people are wanting experiences more than objects. And the more that this, I hate to use younger generation, because then that kind of dates me. Partly because I see myself as a digital native having had a computer since I was a teenager. But I think I expect experience more. I don't want to be,

Andi Graham (30:26.998)
you

Kristen Shepherd (30:33.009)
Yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (30:39.171)
Yeah.

Kristen Shepherd (30:44.881)
Yeah.

Warren Wilansky (30:49.252)
I don't want to be a traditional member to the local theater where I have my seat and my seat up front is what matters to me most. It's being a part of the community. It's having an experience that's really special. And I don't expect to be fond upon from a customer service perspective, but I want to have an emotional engagement with the organization that I'm supporting.

Andi Graham (30:56.456)
you

you

Kristen Shepherd (31:09.769)
Yeah.

Absolutely. And I think, you know, especially in the arts, whether you're talking about performing arts, as you just mentioned, or in the museum space, that in -person experience is crucial. We want to use digital and technology effectively to enhance that. But, you know, that in -person experience, we don't want to lose the human touch, the sense of community. And the creative spirit has really been expressed historically.

Warren Wilansky (31:20.806)
Mm -hmm.

Andi Graham (31:22.58)
Mm -hmm.

Andi Graham (31:37.078)
you

Kristen Shepherd (31:42.225)
in the arts in an analog way, particularly in the visual arts, we're talking about painting and sculpture and textiles and glass and all the different things we can touch and feel, well, not in the museum, don't touch the art kids. But we want that human analog experience at times. I think digital interventions can, when overused, obscure and negate that very personal human connection that we want. We want...

Andi Graham (31:43.702)
Yep.

Andi Graham (31:52.95)
You

Kristen Shepherd (32:11.953)
that empathy, we want the ability to connect with others, whether it's in our community or across time, but digital content done well can actually enhance our experience and can enhance our understanding. So what we hope is that where there's digital content, either on site or at home on your computer, what we want is that to both supplement and sort of

shore up the on -site experience, the in -person experience, but also encourage more connection, encourage more in -person experience. And I'm definitely seeing that. I share your reluctance to talk about younger generations, but I will say even our older generations, I'm a Gen Xer, the baby boomers also want those experiences. I think COVID taught us that connection,

Warren Wilansky (32:42.492)
you

Andi Graham (32:55.798)
You

Kristen Shepherd (33:10.097)
is really important. And it's why we all zoomed and it's why we all tried so hard during COVID to stay in touch using tech. I think we can take what we learned from that experience and have it be a supplement, not a replacement, but a supplement for in -person experiences. But experiential is crucial for.

Andi Graham (33:39.006)
Mm -hmm.

Warren Wilansky (33:41.916)
Yeah, like I've done a little bit of writing and thinking about that topic. And, you know, what I find interesting about it is that a in -person experience is a hundred percent experience. There's no question. That's what you want. That's what everybody wants. But you can supplement it, as you're saying, with digital experiences through, you know, digital playbills, you know, different ways of just kind of continuing to kind of experience. And we might want to call that visitor a point five visitation when they're having that experience.

Kristen Shepherd (33:55.025)
Yeah.

Warren Wilansky (34:11.804)
but those experiences add up as well. And they might be 0 .5 of an in -person experience, but if you can continue to build that consistent experience with somebody, you're gonna encourage more in -person 1 .0 experiences.

Andi Graham (34:23.028)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (34:26.353)
And when you're not in, whether you're in...

I think the ability to...

beginning of our conversation, you talked about how museums are so rich in content that, you know, one of the things that as I'm advising some museums about their visitor experience, what storytelling is one of the most important things, the most important key differentiators in the museum space. There are so many stories to tell, so many kinds of histories that, you know, the way that we decide to

Push that content out digitally is a strategic decision. How we bring people to us at the museum and then what happens once they're here, once they're at the museum, what are the stories they are going to be surprised and delighted by? What are the stories that are going to make them feel seen and heard? That's so important in the work that we do, but it means having great communications plans, great marketing.

good digital presence, having good writers, good writers and good readers on your staff, people who can engage with others and, you know, tell the stories, be welcoming, be inclusive in their storytelling. All of those things are so important that it really brings in the whole staff. It brings in a real sense of collaboration and it allows the community to feel a part of it as well and to be part of that story.

Warren Wilansky (35:34.364)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Shepherd (36:03.473)
It's inspiring stuff. I love working with museums.

Andi Graham (36:05.622)
It is inspiring stuff. And what's neat is they're so filled with creative humans that they're just, you know, there's, I think they're just constantly pushing the boundaries of what can be done or what should be done to figure out new ways to engage. So Kristen, we are just about over time, but I feel like I have about a dozen more questions for you. So we'll definitely have to have you come back in a few months because I think there's so much to talk about here.

Kristen Shepherd (36:13.233)
Yeah.

Warren Wilansky (36:16.988)
Thank you.

Andi Graham (36:33.704)
Thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us.

Kristen Shepherd (36:39.121)
What a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me and I'd love to continue the conversation.

Andi Graham (36:43.452)
Absolutely. Thank you. For sure.

Warren Wilansky (36:44.828)
Thanks, it's been wonderful.